Ed,

What helps me as much as anything is to visit as many hammer-ins as possible since it is much easier for me to absorb it if watching someone do it at the same time as explaining it. There are two hammer-ins coming up shortly in the mid-west where you can watch some of the best. The Branson Hammer-In Sept 29/30 and The Heartland Bladesmithing Symposium a week later in Topeka.

Gary

Hello Ed. I have to second Gary's suggestion. Hammer Ins are a great place to see and learn all about forging. Definitely worth the time and there is usually some type of hands on forging available.

Everyone has their own way of forging. Some do the tang first then move on to the blade. Some do the point first and taper, then forge the bevels, then do the plunge area or pull out.

I usually do the point and taper some. Then I mark where the pull out will be and do it. Very rarely does the ricasso area ever get on the face of the anvil. I put the ricasso area on the face of the anvil only for straightening, and that is done with a wooden hammer. So no stray marks. Or if I am using a flatter to square up everything. That is it, the rest of the time the ricasso is off the face. After the pull out I usually do the blade bevels, then the tang, then making sure everything is straight and true. Then thermal cycling and annealing. This is just my process. Like you said a lot of ways.

As far as blade grinds and plunge lines, yes they should be the same height on both sides, unless you plan on doing a chisel grind. For me since I do flat grinds pretty much all the time, the grind goes all the way to the spine most of the time unless I am doing a certain style like some Sheffield bowies. My plunge cuts go all the way up with a slight radius into the spine at the top. You just have to make sure the plunges match on both sides. Same height, same angle, and same distance from the guard. Whatever style you are making.

I hope this helps some.

Brion

Ed,

I have to agree with the above advice about hammer ins. Attend all you can and watch the forging demonstrations. You'll pick up pointers while watching and will be able to ask questions that perhaps would not otherwise come to mind. You might see obvious things like the hand hammer or anvil condition and how it affects the forged blade.

You may be in an area where hammer ins are few and far between. It seems to me in those situations a person has to be more self motivated than say those in an area where there are alot of makers pushing the limits. I've noticed that some of the most unique styles come from isolated areas where little influence by others can reach a maker. In that case a maker, quite literally, creates a style. This phenomena affects all of us to some degree. We all develope a style based on what we are used to seeing and what looks good to our eye.

What does that have to do with how you forge? Sometimes our style is influenced by how, or how well, we forge a blade. I've heard guys say that they wish they could pull the choil back a little more and have it more pronounced. Since they havn't figured out how, it affects the finished knife. The forging sets up the next stage of the knife. Will the forging allow the maker to grind it the way his eye tells him it should be or will he settle for a knife that is limited by his forging?

One way to get around this is to forge big and grind to shape. We all do that to to some extent. Either way, you have to be able to visualize the finished knife through out the process, allowing material to remove in each step.

I've not mentioned geometry even though that is the bassis for your question. Geometry is something that you will have to study and cant be easily taught in words. On one hand, there are few rules about geometry, but when there is a rule, it's important. In other words, as long as the plunges are even in every way, it doesn't matter how high up or how much radius, etc. you use in a plunge. You just have to forge it in a way that will aloww for the grind.

I rambled a little about things other than your question, but in my mind, they apply. I would also consider taking a blacksmith course. It helped me a lot.

I guess I need to clarify. I do have forging skills. I am lucky to live in an area where there are many hammer-ins throughout the year, and I do attend many of them. Unfortunately, I am the lone bladesmith in our area, so while there is much info available for general blacksmithing, there is a vacuum pertaining to bladesmith work.

My posting was directed more towards the sequencing of the work, and to a lesser extent, the "how to" of forging.

It could well be that all that is needed is a simple refinement of my skills as applied to the ricasso area. I do have a tendency to try and speed things up. Maybe all I need to do is slow down and exercise more caution in my work. As an example...I have never actually tried to avoid having the ricasso contact the anvil. I tend to regard the entire piece as a "work in progress". Perhaps all I need is to regard the ricasso as "finished" and thus no longer a WIP... and learn to keep my mitts off of it.

Thanks for clarifying the questions regarding the ricasso/bevel. My instincts were to keep them the same...I was just uncertain as to the correctness of that thought.

Ed where are you from? What type of forging equipment do you have? I would love to have you visit my shop or meet you at your shop if it is near.

I am constantly trying to learn the secret you are searching for, forging accurately, no missed blows, sharp crisp ricassos, perfect grind lines which are symmetrical on both sides of the plung lines. When you do and write a book about it I am placing my order right now for the first draft copy before it is published. You would become an instant success and prosperous.

The reason I asked about your equipment is because several tools can be employed to aid is creating crisp straight plung lines and ricassos. I watched James Ray Cook (Cookie), Mastersmith, do a demo of his method of forging the ricasso using a power hammer, which can also be adapted to be used on an anvil. You can either ask Cookie for his method or after you answer my first few questions I would be happy to explain it to you.

I watched a first time student visit my shop who pulled the choil area down with a hand hammer and repeatedly hit the exact same spot on his blade every single time. I told him that he had excellent hammer control. His answer was, I better I am a experienced carpenter!

I can't remember who told me this, I wish I can remember so I can give him the credit for this statement, it might have been Jim Crowell, but anyway, the statement is if you don't want to hit the ricasso when hand hammering don't look at it when you are swinging the hammer in the midst of a blow.If you do you will hit the ricasso every time. Your hand eye coordination is so dependent on sight that whatever you look at you will hit!. I hope these few tips will help you in your quest of the perfect forged blade. So far I can admit I have not reached that destination yet, but boy am I enjoying my JOURNEY. Timothy

Tim....I live in central Illinois...Clinton to be exact. I would love to visit your shop or have you visit mine. As far as equipment goes, I have several London pattern anvils, One "post" anvil for knifemaking, a Grizzly grinder, two shop made KMG type grinders ( one with VFD ), a treddle hammer, and all the usual hand tools, angle grinders, welder, hammers, accessories and stuff that most blacksmiths have. As mentioned, most of my close friends are blacksmiths, and I do attend several hammer-ins throughout the year.

About 5-6 years ago after spending a couple of years blacksmithing, I decided that I really wanted to get into bladesmithing. At that time, I started down that pathway. I started out working mostly with 1080 and 5160, and then added 52100 and CRU5v (1086e) as my last type of steel. At this point, I feel that these steels are adequate for my needs. I only work with high carbon steels, and have no desire to do Damascus or stainless at this time.

Most of my efforts up until now have been concerned with learning the Heat Treating and developing the hammer skills and the grinding skills to support my hobby.

I did make the aquaintance of Mr. Merle Rush of Streator, Illinois. He is a JS and has over thirty years experience making knives, gunsmithing and doing engraving work. He has been mentoring my progress to date, but I don't get up to his shop very often...however, he is only a phone call away, and we keep in touch. He has been a good friend, and has been most willing to help me whenever I have needed his guidance. Up until now, I have focused on making fixed blade knives only. At some point, I may make a move towards folders....but not yet. I'm having too much fun with fixed blades.

At this point in time, I am un-decided as to whether I want to pursue a JS stamp or not. I still have an awful lot to learn...and I'm not getting any younger. If I do decide to pursue a JS, it would be only for my personal satisfaction since I really have very little interest in marketing my work. For me, this is truely a labor of love....and I don't want to ruin one Damn fine hobby by turning it into a business.

What I am interested in is making better knives. Up to this point, I have made probably close to 200 knives,(not counting those that have found their way into the scrap bucket) but I have kept no records. Most have been given away to friends nad family...and that's just fine, but for my personal satisfaction, I am still seeking improvement. Of the 200 knives I've made to date, I have included a ricasso on maybe 15 or 20 of them...the rest have not had ricasso on them. On the ones where I have done a ricasso, I have not been happy with the result...and quite frankly...I have been avoiding them...but now I feel that it is time for me to step up to the plate. I just want to be moving in the right direction...I don't want to become an expert on how NOT to do it.

That's about it.

Ed, how old are you? I just turned 62. Well, now that I know you own a treadle hammer, this tool will help you in forging the ricasso like Cookie. Cookie forges a point on the blade first then tapers it slightly. Cookie has a block of steel, 3/4" or so thick, an 1" long and an 1" wide. This piece of steel is welded on a porter bar to hold it so you can strike it. Once the ricasso area is up to a high heat, the blade is placed on the treadle hammer edge up. The piece of steel is place where you want the ricasso to be. You then hammer down approximately 1/4"using this steel block. This pushes down the ricasso, exposing the edge. This gives you a very sharp area to hammer the beginning of your edge. The pull down area is placed on the corner of the anvil, so you can concentrate on pulling down your cutting edge centering it. It really doen't matter where you place the blade on the anvil, because when you hammer the edge, you can always center the edge if it is off center of the ricasso. I hope this helps you in forging a nice centered ricasso. I will be at the hammer-in in old Washington September 15-16. If you can visit I will be happy to demo this technique. Timothy

Keep asking questions, if my explanation isn't clear I will do my best to answer them. Timothy 337-302-2289

Tim...For the record, I am 66 years old ...a genuine for real war baby.

Yes, I do have a treddle hammer (one of those made by Mark Gardner). Your description of the technique using the block of steel to help form the ricasso was well written and easily understood. I will give it a try. My main concern is doing a lot of work on the ricasso and then having it get all banged up in the subsequent work. I am certain that if I take appropriate measures to protect that area that I can do it...it's just that in my previous efforts, I really did not take any particular pains to keep it protected as it should be.

I would like to attend the Washington event, but it isn't in the cards for this year...too many irons in the fire already.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will give the block a try and hopefully all will go well.

Like I said earlier, I think I just need to dial it back a notch and take my time. Since I started making knives, most of those who have seen them wouldn't know a ricasso from a Buick...and they probably wouldn't know or care if it was technically correct or not...but I know, and I have not been happy with my earlier efforts. At this juncture, all I'm looking for is improvement...and once that comes...we'll see where that takes me.

Until then, thanks again for your help.

Ed, I will be teaching an introduction to bladesmithing class in Maine in March of next year. 6 students is a full class so I hope you can clear 2 weeks to attend next year. 2 have already signed up so don't wait too long. Also, post pics of your work from time to time, I would love to see the improvement as time and experience at the forge and anvil continue.

Timothy